[🇺🇸US]”But I KAN’T STOP NOW” – intervew with Devin Flynn aka RELM(KSN/AOK) –

『Everyone has someone or something they can never forget — whether it’s a friend, a former lover or a scene from a movie. For me, it was a graffiti piece by him, “RELM.”

This is a piece of history – for the real ones who ran the streets, gaining experience and knowledge in an era before the internet and social media, and for those who never knew it.
I hope this brings back good memories or sparks new inspiration.』

日本語ページはこちら

The first time I came across “RELM” was when I saw his work in the legendary LA-based graffiti magazine Can Control.
(This was the first graffiti mag I copped in the ‘90s, from the freshly opened X-Large in Harajuku. The brand was just starting out, with Mike D from the Beastie Boys behind it — the original concept was his idea.)

The characters and pieces he created were fresh but lil strange that really caught my attention. I remember thinking, “What’s going on in his brain?” Some of his works are still among my favorite graffiti pieces to this day.

Also, I really dig the pieces he did in collaboration with Sandow Birk*, which were featured in that same issue. I think those works are some of the historical pieces that represent “what street art is” in contemporary art scene.

*Sandow Birk is a contemporary painter focused on American culture. His Men In The City series, depicting skaters landing tricks, gained attention in Japan after being featured in the Japanese street culture magazine Fine. It’s editor-in-chief, Mr. Ohno, was a key man in Japanese street culture history (FLJ Magazine / Ex：Warp Magazine Japan).

But after a while, his work disappeared from the graffiti zines. I kept searching to see what he was up to, and in the 2010s, I finally found out he was working as an animator under his real name Devin Flynn. And through this interview, I learned that he has many other talents.

In this interview, I focused on asking various things about him as the graffiti writer “RELM.” This is a bit long, so I recommend bringing a drink or something to smoke for chilling before you start reading.
Ready? Alright, let’s go.

Nice to meet you, “Devin Flynn” a.k.a. “RELM.” It’s an honor to have the chance to interview with you. You’re one of the heroes in graffiti history, for sure — both for me and for anyone else.

So, to start, could you please introduce yourself briefly?

Hi and thank you for your kind words. Okay. Here is my introduction.

I’m from Los Angeles, California and more specifically from the east side.
6th Street and Lafayette Park, then in 1979 my family moved to Atwater Village. I was living in downtown from age 4. My dad Edward Flynn is an abstract painter so we always lived in loft spaces and places with good studio space for his paintings. He is not famous but he is friends with some famous LA artrists.

I’m 54 years old and was lucky enough to be around when style graffiti (as opposed to gang graffiti which has been in LA since at least the 1940’s) and other related cultures like hip hop rapping and breakdancing began to emerge in our city.

The experiences I had doing graffiti and being involved in hip hop culture were very influential in the path I have chosen as an artist. The spirit of that life is still resonating in my art work but I do not make graffiti related art. I keep that separate.

Now I’m doing show at “Tetoka gallery”(Kanda-area, Tokyo) on Jan 18th to Feb 16th, This is the first time I have decided to share some artworks that I made during the early 90’s as a way to connect my past to my present.

The exhibition ends this weekend, but I brought some outlines I drew I back in the day that I never got to paint on a wall so nobody has ever seen these pieces until now, so if you’re into graf history you might enjoy seeing these.

My creative output is hard to explain easily. I have many interests and channel them into different forms. My main passion has always been animation, but if you break it down.
It is made up of music, painting, writing, acting, etc. All things I enjoy doing.
Instead of choosing one art form I decided to try and pursue all of the things that inspire me.

①Animation:

My career spans over 25 years working in the animation industry and I have worked for almost all the major studios in some capacity: adult swim, Cartoon Network, Warner Bros, Nickelodeon, Disney, MTV, FOX etc.. as well as many independent companies and brands like Super Deluxe, Bento Box, Nike, Umbro, Braindead, The Hundreds, Koch Records, etc.
If I had to pick only one of my signature works, it would be Y’ALL SO STUPID, which I released through Adult Swim’s online channel Super Deluxe. This was my chance to show what I can do with 100% creative control. To this day it is still my most well known project.
Lots of fun projects coming up!!

②Painting/Collage:

I have kept a studio practice for at least as long as my animation career and have shown my work in many renown galleries throughout the world including MOCA in Los Angeles, Deitch Projects in NY, Patricia Armocida in Italy, and　Tetoka in Tokyo to name a few.

③Music:

I have released various recordings with my different bands and some solo projects with multiple independent record labels. For example, I have collaborated with Gary Panter for many years with our band’s various permutations. Devin & Gary/FOG WINDOW. We make experimental music together and released about 4-5 records with different Indy labels. My band PIXELTAN also released a record on DFA Records.

I have so many interests sometimes I move away from one thing to do something else. Haha. I started graffiti in 1984 and stopped it in 1994 when I went to college for animation. That is my career now, but I still try to do everything else on the side. It’s a difficult path but I can’t stop now. Always inspired to try something new. My collage and paintings for Tetoka are very different than my cartooning and graf, but I think the visual power is there. Every year I feel like I am improving on each project. It’s very satisfying to do what you want to do, although sometimes you just have to work to keep it all going.

Thank you so much for taking time to look into my career.
I am thinking it might be time to try and explain my path as an artist. I am currently planning to pitch a retrospective show here in LA that would try to trace my career from graffiti to now. Your suggestion about to interview me is confirming my thoughts that maybe this is a good time.

You’re constantly seeking new creative horizons, always moving forward. That takes a serious level of conviction and courage.

Thanks for the nice comment about artistic courage. It is difficult to navigate a career that has so many different focuses. It is almost impossible to understand why someone would try to do animation music painting etc at the same time. Sometimes I think I should have chosen only one but I would not be fulfilled. I have to try everything. Haha.

Why you step away from graffiti?

It is probably because I wanted to do animation more than anything else at that point. This was right when Ren & Stimpy and Beavis & Butthead were coming out. I was really inspired by that.

I think I made a hard decision to quit graffiti 100% because I thought it was time to become an adult. Haha. I was 22 and I thought this is already too old to be doing this. I stayed friends with Todd James and a few other people who were still doing it, but I really left it alone for a long time.

When I moved back to NY in 1997 I began working at a design company founded by two ex graffiti artists who i met through Todd (Reas). We both started working there around that time. He was doing illustration and design and I was directing animation for a cartoon “Pink Donkey and the Fly” created by Gary Panter. That is how I met Gary and have been very good friends ever since that time. He became a mentor to me. He is one of the most important people in my life next to my wife and family. 🙂

Are you familiar with the Japanese anime show Ugo Ugo Lhuga?

I love Ugo Ugo Lhuga, and I am a big Burutabu-chan fan. It’s a good question and it seems you know my taste pretty well already haha.

Haha, your work gives me that same vibe as Ugo Ugo Lhuga.

– about Graffiti days：in LA –

Now, I’d love to hear about your jpourney as the graffiti writer “RELM.” How did you grow up in LA, and what drew you into the graffiti scene?

Cool question. My exposure to gang graffiti is very early. Seeing it in my neighborhood and then having friends that are in a gang.

Everybody at that time was learning to write in the gang style because it was so cool. Hard to resist, but I never joined a gang luckily.

In JHS 1983, when I was 13 and introduced to New York style graffiti because somebody painted a Cheech Wizard on a handball court in my school, and I couldn’t believe it. It looked like a perfect sticker but very big. So well done that it was magical. The lines were so clean I wanted to figure out how they did it. Later I realized the artist that painted it was SOON. A black guy from the Bronx who recently moved to LA and is very influential in our history. One of the most important figures in the early development.

I began graffiti in 1984. I was not interested in graffiti for art at first. I only liked tagging the school and buses with markers and stealing markers. I was also distracted by punk rock shows and trying to play in a band, so I missed some early years of development. My partner was a Korean kid who called himself Pizazz. I decided to be Fizz. Very embarrassing choice of names but we were only 14 yr olds! Anyways this was just for vandalism and before I was interested in painting big pieces with spray paint.

I came back to graffiti in 1987 when I reconnected with REV and RISE(KSN), we were in middle school together, because all my friends were getting better than me, and I was getting jealous. I decided I would try to get better at the art aspect and not just vandalism. This was my plan from that point until I quit in 1993. I am happy that my plan was successful. I learned so much in those years. The experience will always be an influence on my visual sensibility.

I was already friends with the leaders of KSN so they let me join immediately. I had a little reputation for making punk flyer art so they knew I was artistic.

About the name of our crew KSN, KSN was created in mid 80s so RUNDMC is popular and being a “KING” was also in graffiti so the original meaning is Kings Stop at Nothing. Kind of silly. I started changing the meanings to different things like KANT STOP NOW or KEEPING SUCKERS NERVOUS because the original name seemed out of date. KOOL STYLE NETWORK I like making up names for things. I have named a few bands like “The Shape Shifters”. “The Shape Shifters” is underground hip hop collective based in LA. Actually, I’m an original member of that group. There’s more, but I’ll talk about it later.

RISE was the same age as me, but I looked up to REV he was my senpai. He was very talented and was playing guitar in EXCEL a speedmetal band I liked so he was very COOL. His technique with spray paint was more advanced and I tried to copy him but it wasn’t that good. Haha. Fortunately I kept trying and got better. (BTW Cypress Hill logo’s skull was drawn by Rev , and the logo design by Dante Ariola.)

We were a small crew, and were all friends who did everything together. Our girlfriends knew each other and we would all go out together to party on the weekends. It was a happy family. After highschool we met a few new people and they were included in KSN but it remained a very tight knit crew.

Our main competitor was WCA and they had many members and not every body knew each other. The members were chosen more like soldiers that had a particular skill. They had many talented members and the original members were old friends of ours. The founding 3 members were really cool guys and I really respected each of them and was good friends with them, but as their crew started growing it was too many different kind of personalities to keep track of. They even tried to ask us to dissolve KSN and just join WCA to be one supergroup, but we said “no thanks”. We liked being a small crew that were really friends for life not just for doing graffiti. It seemed too cold.

I remained friends with WCA members I knew from before but some members were salty about us not wanting to join and tried some devious things to try and destroy our crew. This is where I meet Todd James(REAS).

One of the WCA members tells one of Todd’s friend called JA(XTC) to come to LA and destroy all of our pieces. He does this for a few months and it’s a mystery why he has chosen to go over our stuff. Then when I go to this WCA guy’s place to hang out he puts me on the phone with Todd saying he is JA’s friend and hoping I will start yelling at him or acting like a typical idiot. Instead we have a lovely conversation about music and art and become instant friends. Haha.

When I go to NY for the first time to work at the Apollo I meet up with Todd and we go see JA. Soon we are all friends and JA stops destroying KSN stuff in LA. I move to NY and join AOK because I am becoming good friends with Todd(REAS) now. The rest is really history but there are so many stories. This is just the basic origin.

That’s really an amazing youth story.

I know the name EXCEL. They were well-known in the Japanese street scene as part of the Suicidal Tendencies family.

Yes Excel was part of the Venice scene. The singer was from Venice. My friend Adam(REV/KSN) was living in Hollywood area and the gangs in Hollywood hated Venice gangs so he had a lot of trouble during that time being affiliated with Venice but living in Hollywood.

The Cryptic Slaughter logo on flyer was drawn by my friend Rick Farr who has recently passed away. He was very famous for being the lead singer of DRIVE LIKE JEHU and HOT SNAKES. Cool guy. He worked at animation studio “Funny Garbage” where I worked & met Gary Panter and Rick also illustrated background paintings for my cartoon Y’all So Stupid.

You made the right choices at every point. Were you the curious yet careful type as a kid?

I wish I could say I was a careful kid but I got into some trouble in school and graffiti also was a lot of dangerous situations so I wasn’t very careful really, but I was thoughtful about my friends and careful to not hang around stupid people. I always watch out for bad people and stay away from violent people. Punk music and concerts was violent but I was so interested in the music I enjoyed the scene anyways. Haha. It was an adventure.

Next, could you tell me about this piece, which I really love? By the way, how long did it take you to paint this?

The piece with the eyeball and screaming brain is just having fun with REAS that day. He was visiting me in LA and we did a lot of painting. Unfortunately he didn’t get to finish his piece because he broke his ankle coming down from the ladder and slipped on a spray can. We took him to County hospital and he said it was filled with injured gang members. Haha. He saw a part of LA I could not have showed him. Fun & crazy memories are usually attached to every piece I have done. 🙂

I guess it take a few hours….? The whole piece was improvised right on the spot. I didn’t have a sketch for that one, though I usually do.

That wall was a great line up. BTW OMNI 156 (XTC/COD) was there. He did alot of subway trains in the 80’s and was friends with both REAS and Wane from back then. He has passed away unfortunately.

I always felt like you and REAS were like ying and yang twins in your work, but I never knew you were that close.

I always loved underground comics like R. Crumb and vintage animation like Betty Boop. This was a common interest for me and Reas when we met in 1989. I think it influenced our work a lot. We remain close friends and I speak to him at least once a week. Many friends from this era have lost touch but our careers go in a similar direction so we are always connected sharing new works and giving feedback. I’m glad we met so long ago. It has been always positive and inspiring. I found funny letter from WANE(COD) and REAS(AOK) when I moved back to LA.

The letter is so nice!
You guys went beyond stereotypes to develop your own unique style. That’s Style Wars. I feel that style and attitude have been a huge influence on the generations that followed.

– work with Sandow Birk –

Next, could you tell me about your work with Sandow Birk?

I’m surprised you are aware of the collaborations with Sandow. I never knew if those were known by anybody. Haha. That was inspired by the LA riots and made at that time (1992).

Those two canvases I did with Sandow were very large and both conceptually connected to the Riots. The obvious racist Chinese caricature was trying to express the disrespectful treatment of Asian people during the riots. It still makes me mad to look at that painting and remember those days…. I was really just expressing some anger and trying to tell some truth about what was happening.
I reconnected with Sandow Birk recently and he sent me this photo.

Wow! This is a historic photo!
I can feel Robert Williams’ energy in these pieces.

Big time!! Early 90s just before he started Juxtapoz (fammous real contemporary art magazine founded by Robert Williams). I was studying his stuff!

Oh, so my feeling was right! You’ve met Robert Williams?!

Later I met Robert Williams and visited his place and the Ford speed shop where he keeps his hot rods. He was cool and generous with his time. The underground cartooning community is actually very small so I have been able to be in contact with people I admire.

Even though the community was small, the fact that you were able to meet him—and that he treated you well—must be because of your drive and positive character.

– about Graffiti days：in NY –

Next, could you share about your days in NY?

OK, this is the story of first move to NY in 1990 :

Like I mentioned earlier, the first time I went to NY was for work at the Apollo Theater. I was painting the stage set for a hip-hop show called RAPMANIA. REV and Dante helped me. And I met my heroes like Rakim and Grand Master Flash. After my positive experience with RAPMANIA, I just moved to NY in 1990 with no plan.

My friend BABA MSK had just moved to NY too and got a job at “Unique Boutique” on Broadway doing airbrushing on T-Shirts.

He got me in there (THANK YOU BABA) and Wane(COD) was also working there so that’s how we met. He started inviting me up to the Bronx to paint different low key spots at first, and then we just turned it up and started painting all the time.

At around the same time REAS(AOK) came by to visit UNIQUE since he found out I was working there and we started hanging out alot and sometimes getting up together too. We were also collaborating on art gigs like graphics and cartoon stuff. He had an animation tester in his house where he created the animation for Beastie Boys’ Skills to Pay the Bills Fan VHS Videocassette, and we would practice animating sometimes.

Through Unique boutique I got alot of freelance gigs.

I painted a 50’s style burger spot called Ed Debevic’s. It was a chain back then and very popular. I think originally a Chicago thing. While I was painting the back wall of Ed Debevic’s. BOOZER RTW walked up and asked me to paint his Reggae Record Shop in the east village. That was fun and of course I was a huge RTW fan. MIN QUICK ZEPHYR REVOLT etc…

I also met a graffiti artist named POEM(featured on the cover of Subway Art). I was lucky enough to have the opportunity to paint an A train at Grant Station in East NY with him, which was one of the locations used for filming Style Wars.
He was from the same neighborhood as SOON, and before SOON moved to LA, they were partners in writing. SOON used to tell me that his piece was right next to POEM’s on the cover of Subway Art, but he never had the photo to prove it. Recently, that photo was exhibited in ART IN THE STREETS, and it finally confirmed what he had been saying all along. And the pieces were great too. I never would have imagined that everything would come full circle from seeing SOON’s Cheech Wizard to painting a train with his former partner.

So many to mention, but one more that was notable was a barber shop on 125th street. I painted an Egyptian woodcarving image with African colors on masonite board at Stash 2’s studio and I accidentally filled the place up with paint fumes when his girlfriend was there. He was pretty mad, but we stayed friends. haha. I had to get the masonite board up to 125th street from downtown and this car service dude helped me hold it on his roof of his car just with our bare hands all the way uptown. THAT WAS TOO CRAZY. I’m lucky it didn’t fly off or break in half during the trip. HAHA.

Very grateful to be able to paint with NY subway kings like Poem, Wane, Dero, West, Mare, Erni, Doze, Reas, Ghost, JA, Ket,z Key. Pure etc… I have no further hopes for graffiti. I did everything I wanted to do. Most importantly I mastered my own style. I wish I can do that with my current paintings but at least I’m still evolving! : )

– Move back to LA –

by 1992 I had decided to go to college in Rhode Island to learn animation and I moved back to LA to get some basic college credits to transfer to the university. During that time back in LA I did some of my best graffiti. I think the experience in NY gave me the edge. I had learned alot and was still trying to perfect my style. I was painting at least once a week and bombing too. Knowing I was gonna be away for a long time I must have tried to to as much as possible for my last year….

– Go back again to NY & Retire –

I did move back to NY for the summer before I went to college and did some nice pieces there too.

I got to paint with so many great writers at that time in both LA (RIVAL, REV, RISK, DELO, MECK, CHARLIE, FRAME(EMZ)) and NY… (of Course REAS, WANE, WEN, POEM, DERO, WIPS, KET, ZENO, NOTCH 56, ERNIE, NewWave, MARE(RTW), WEST(FC)). Some NY dudes I actually painted with in LA. It gets confusing trying to remember so I probably missed alot.

Once I got to college I dropped graffiti completely. Some kid in one of my classes found out who I was and convinced me to do a wall, but that’s about it. By 1994 I was pretty much done. I have gone back over the years and done a few here and there though for fun. Nothing too serious.

– Extre stories –

Like I mentioned earlier, I like making up names for things. I have named a bands in NY. The band is “Black Dice”. Black Dice is N.Y based noise band, the name came from the book Faith Of Graffiti. It was an old school tag. Really dope too.
Hisham Bharoocha (the brother of HAshim Bharoocha who is music writer, write for WaxPoetics and any US and Japan media) was in the group at the same time we were doing our band “PIXELTAN” with and he asked me to come up with their name.

PIXELTAN is a band with me, Hisham, and my wife Mika, and we played a show with Ramm:ell:zee in France and I have some great photos of us hanging out. He was having fun that day. Then later we all went to a Gothic Cathedral for a photo shoot. That Cathedral was incredible, and a gigantic pipe organ that sounded so loud and bassy. Ramm was freaking out. He loved it. Me too. I went back the next morning for mass to hear the organ.
Ramm:ell:zee is a huge infulence of me and this’s another great memory.

I also did some artwork, like the LOUD Records logo and also the artwork for WORDSOUND’s group Hawd Gankstuh Rappuhs MC’s (Wid Ghatz), as well as the logo for CRAZY WISDOM MASTERS, a pseudonym of Jungle Brothers, which was released from the sub-label BLACK HOODZ.
Actually, HAwd GAnkstuh Rappuhs Which is MY group. I created a fake gangster rap group as a joke and we released 2 records which are very funny and one of the best things I ever did. It’s listed in the EGO TRIP Book of rap lists as #2 top parody. I did the he artwork too.

Oh no. I was the heads of WORDSOUND.

Oh really???? I also recently did a song with Sensational!!!!!

There’s a lot more, but I guess if I don’t stop here, it’ll never finish. Haha. This is the story of my days in NY and the days leading up to when I quit graffiti. Thanks for hearing to my memories.

Thank you so much for sharing such invaluable stories. Every episode is so incredibly amazing that, honestly, I can’t even choose what to talk about. Being able to document this as an article is truly one of the greatest honors of my life. I sincerely appreciate it.

Next I’d love to hear about your days as an animator. But before that, let’s take a short break. Haha.

DEVIN FLYNN Exhibition 「REALMS | レルムズ」
Date: January 18 (Sat) – February 16 (Sun), 2025
Hours: 16:00–22:00
Closed: Wednesdays
Venue: TETOKA | 手と花
Address: 2-16-6 Kanda Tsukasamachi, Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo, 1F
Tel: 03-5577-5309

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[US🇺🇸]RELM(KNS/AOK)
IG: @relm_ksn

[US🇺🇸]Devin Flynn
IG: @devin_flynn

[JP🇯🇵]TETOKA
IG: @tetokakanda
TW: @tetokakanda
YT: @tetoka2633

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Pixeltan – “Yamerarena-i”